Lou Engle, the Rock and their Message

My god.  Nelson Garcia just sent me links to a video made my Lou Engle.  This is the man I mentioned in my previous post that made an appearance at the "Rock" church and was practically worshipped by Miles McPherson.  If you can stomach it, watch the second one.  In the first Lou Engle calls up 50 young people that are going to fast for 40 days to stop gays and lesbians from keeping their right to marriage.  Watch the second video and watch the people in the audience.  NG was right–this guy is Jim Jones reincarnated (well, NG said that there is no doubt that Lou Engle is another Jim Jones).  Those 50 young people and those people in the audience would do anything Engle told them to do.  If he asked them to throw their babies off a building–I have no doubt they would. And watch the children in the audience. 



And this is the message that The Rock Church is putting out?  I wonder how these 50 young people are going to feel when Prop. 8 is defeated–I bet they’ll be mad they didn’t eat their Big Macs for 40 days!

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13 Responses to Lou Engle, the Rock and their Message

  1. Joe says:

    I don\’t know about you, but when I watched video number two, it was surrounded by ads for porn.   Pretty Funny really!

  2. Melissa says:

    I\’m shocked and saddened that there is so much manipulative control in organized religion. What I don\’t understand is why Mr. Engle begins his speech talking about how God wants all peoples to come together as one, and end intolerance. Then he twists the message into how the Christians need to band together and become intolerant to defeat this proposition. Don\’t people listen to what he says??It\’s so sad that he\’s fostering intolerance under the guise of promoting unification.

  3. Justin says:

    These people are absolutely totally insane and by their standards demon possessed.  They should be criminaly charged for child abuse by endangering the mental health of these young people.  Oh well they will be suprised when they get to their heaven and find it filled with fire and their good buddy Satan.

  4. Kevin says:

    Hey Joe,
    Yes, I noticed the porn too!  Ugh.
    Hi \’no name\’:  I think you got it right:  people do not listen to what this guy has to say.  And if they did listen, they certainly aren\’t thinking about it.
    Hey Justin,
    I think this is child abuse as well.  It is interesting that over at TalkWisdom Christine has put up links to a video showing kids singing for hope and harmony for Obama and then at the end of the video someone has tacked on some propaganda from Hitler.  Now I think that video of those kids singing is a bit bizarre–but at least they are singing about hope.  In the video of Engle, there is no hope except for Engle.  And they are praying and fasting to take away a right–not give hope.  There is a big difference.  Of course, it isn\’t a difference that Christine would understand…

  5. Cassie says:

    I see a danger here that we may become as intolerant of other peoples\’ views and beliefs as some of them are of ours, Relisious instruction of the VERY young whether done by Sunday School Teachers or Nuns with Rulers is not a place where children are encouraged to think for themselves. They are taught that they must believe everything they are told or else God will hate them and they will burn in hell forever. And this form of religious brain-washing is probably not going to end anytime soon. The happy thing is that most of us get over it as we mature.

  6. Kevin says:

    Hi Cass,
    I have to disagree with your statement:  "I see a danger here that we may become as intolerant of other peoples\’ views and beliefs as some of them are of ours…"  I think the difference between me and them is that I am not fighting to take away people\’s rights.  I don\’t spend my day saying how my religion tells me that people are evil and therefore these evil people can\’t be allowed to marry, adopt children, foster children and so on.  I spend my day fighting views like that.  But for me there is a difference.  And I have said many times that I don\’t care what people believe.  If a Christian doesn\’t like gay marriage, then they shouldn\’t get married to someone of the same sex.  But I do care when they start forcing their religious views on the rest of the population. 
    Have you seen what is happening in Israel in some areas?  Ultra-orthodox Jews (who are very similar in behavior to the far right Christians) have formed groups to police neighborhoods.   The main target is women–especially women who wear read, our loose blouses, or pants.  Targeting them means beating them and throwing stones at them.  I can see that starting here in the not-to-distant future. 

  7. Cassie says:

    Yes, but that\’s the problem, Kevin. ALL of this starts with "good intentions". You see these people as a danger—and so they are–but they see US as a danger too. A danger to their values, their beliefs, to their way of life—and so we are, in a way. Not in any violent way, of course, but in an ideological way, certainly. The very fact that they may have to consider us, not as members of some outcast group, like lepers in Biblical and medieval times, but as fellow human beings with a right to equal consideration and equal rights under the law means that they will be forced to MODIFY their beliefs (at least on the civil and public level—and they see this as a violation of their religion and an affront to their God (for they see their God in their own image—a fallacy common to most of humanity), So naturally they are fighting tooth and nail.  So would you. In fact, so ARE you.
    But don\’t be so quick to paint them as "evil"—they aren\’t you know. At least, they don\’t MEAN to be.

  8. Kevin says:

    Hi Cass,
    I don\’t think I\’ve called anyone evil.  Here is the major difference I see between them and me:  they are fighting to either keep me from getting equal rights or to take my rights away.  I am not fighting to either take their rights away or keep them from getting other rights.  There is a big difference between these motivations.  And we are not a \’real\’ danger to them–we are only a danger to them in their imaginations.  However, they are a real danger to me and my life. 
    I have trouble seeing what their \’good intentions\’–especially when it comes to taking away the rights of others.  They believe they are doing the work of God.  So did lots and lots of other groups throughout history.  I suppose to them that seems like a good intention–but in reality, is it?  Look at the Crusades.  Were these fights over good intentions?  Well, maybe to the Catholics they were.  And maybe to the Muslims they were.  But in reality they weren\’t.  They were two religions fighting a violent battle (and they are still fighting this battle) over who is the chosen people.  For me this is the same with the anti-gay groups.  They believe they are doing good things, but you can bet the future is going to judge them for what they did, and it won\’t be a good judgement.
    I had an interesting conversation with one of my friends that was defending the views of Orson Scott Card.  He said that people would be forced to modify their beliefs, as if that were a bad thing.  I don\’t think change is a bad thing, especially in this case.   

  9. Cassie says:

    I understand your feelings, naturally—especially so because we are both on the same side. But being "human-hearted" (which Confucius declared the highest quality—he prized it even above justice) requires that I at attempt to see the other person\’s point of view even (or perhaps ESPECIALLY) when we disagree. But so many on both sides of the question do not even attempt to understand the other\’s point of view—which makes understanding each other an impossible task. You say "we are only a danger to them in their imaginations" but the danger is very REAL to them. They view us as a threat to all they hold sacred and (since our perception shapes our reality) the net result is fear. And people who are afraid are capable of almost anything. 
    One of the problems is that both sides have so much in common—including the fact that neither group is willing to grant the other the courtesy of addressing their concerns as genuine.
    I\’m not talking about the leaders and rabble-rousers on either side—I\’m talking about the regular people. You talk about asking them to modify a belief-system on which they have based their whole lives—a belief system through which they make sense of the cosmos and their place in it as though that were the easiest thing in the world.
    But for anyone who was brought up in that system (as I was—-born in the heart of the Bible Belt at the beginning of one of the most conservative decades in American History—the 1950s) I can tell you iit isn\’t that simple. It was a LONG time before I stopped hating myself for being who I am BECAUSE of the way I was brought up and because of what I was taught about God. And if I hadn\’t happened to be born transgendered I wonder just how open-minded I would have been about this issue.
    But I was lucky (though it didn\’t seem so at the time) the Powers That Be were out to ensure that I didn\’t wind up as close-minded and intolerant as my forebears. And maybe because of that I am better able to understand BOTH viewpoints. At least enougb to know that the rank and file on the other side are sincere people, and basically good people (I grew up among them, after all) who are sincerely afraid—and it is their fear we need to address.

  10. Cassie says:

    And I am moved to add something else at this point to what I said below. Justin and you have both wondered why they ignore the points we make when we quote scripture, I\’ll admit I was wondering about that too until I remembered my uprbinging. They have been forewarned that the devil and his emissaries will come among them using scripture for their own purposes (you\’ll remember the 4th Chapter of Matthew where Jesus is tempted by the devil who uses scriptural quotations). They are trained to tune US out because they have been taught to believe that we really are affiliated with the Devil and are here to seduce them from their faith, destroy the Christian Family, and pave the way for the Antichrist.
    Now you (or I) might consider their belief irrational (which it IS, to US) but that doesn\’t make it any less real to THEM.
    And that is where we need to begin—by understanding that their beliefs and their fears are very REAL to THEM and can\’t just be dismissed as irrational or imaginary.
    So how do you treat someone who is afraid? With understanding (we all understand what is is to be afraid) with love (after all, whether you are dealing with religion or science we are all kin—cf my last blog entry "A Family Affair") and with patiencem because people who are afraid cannot be hurried.

  11. Cassie says:

    Matthew 4The Temptation of Jesus  1Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. 2After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."  4Jesus answered, "It is written: \’Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.\'[a]"
     5Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:    " \’He will command his angels concerning you,       and they will lift you up in their hands,    so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.\'[b]"
     7Jesus answered him, "It is also written: \’Do not put the Lord your God to the test.\'[c]"
     8Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9"All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
     10Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: \’Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.\'[d]"
     11Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

  12. Kevin says:

    Hi Cass,
    Thanks for all of that.  I do understand your position.  And I do treat those that hate me and fear me (usually) with compassion.  At least I try.  I have to admit when I first started blogging I came out attacking.  But over the years I have mellowed a bit and now I can at least talk to people like Carlotta in a decent way–and yes, even try to understand their position.  Of course, I reserve the right to talk about people like Engle.  The main reason I wrote what I did about him is because of an entry at TalkWisdom.   Christine had put up links to a video showing kids singing about Obama.  She thought it was brainwashing and related to what Hitler did to the children of Germany.  She also supports Carlotta\’s church.  Engle was at that church fighting to take my right away to stay married.  And then one my friends sent me the video links to Engle.  So I put up the video links so that people could see what Engle does to children. 
    I do agree with you that some people don\’t like Scripture being quoted to them.  However, they use Matthew to not only ignore non-Christians, they use it against anyone who doesn\’t believe according to their own beliefs.  That isn\’t going to stop me from pointing out their hypocrisy when they use one verse in the Bible and ignore another verse.  I think there is hope for these people–that they will be able to see their own hypocrisy and move beyond it.  But in the meantime, my marriage is up for a vote…

  13. Cassie says:

    Then I guess it\’s time we had a little FAITH 🙂 that the MAJORITY of the California Voters will see how WRONG it would be to take away a right once it has been gained. And the statistics seem to indicate they will—keeping my fingers, toes, and eyes crossed foy y\’all!

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