I just saw this hilarious video over at Rob and Justin’s ThePoliticalSpectrum.
Oh – now I understand! This almost makes sense – in a biblical sort of way…
humorous but, sadly, just as the Fundamentalists do the makers of this video are twisting the facts to fit their own view and to attack and insult many very nice people who happen to believe in the Bible. This is not the correct way to go about it.
Hi Cass,I see your point, but what exactly is a biblically-based marriage that these good people believe in? I know we differ on approaching these people, but if they can at least see that their bible isn\’t quite what they think it is, we have a better chance of getting them to look at this a bit differently. Of course, it may make a few fundamentalists mad, but if Paul can say that marriage is not the best thing, then these people need to know it (one way or the other).
OK to begin with this video. If the people who had made it had actually read the Bible they could have made better points. For example. Genesis states clearly (Chapter 4 verses 12-20) that the Lord drove Cain out of the land of his parents after he killed his brother and he went to the Land of Nod…there is no hint of any sexual relationship between Cain and his mother, Eve on the CONTRARY Cain found a wife in this new land and began to sire children. Now you can have a lot of fun asking Fundamentalists and others just where the hell the People of Nod came from but suggesting an incestuous relationship between Cain and his mother is just making stuff up in a cheap attempt to score debater\’s points and won\’t last past the fact-checking process. Again, Sarah (Sarai) was not Abraham\’s sister…she was his sister-in-law as her sister was married to his brother (but see Genesis, eleventh chapter, twenty-ninth verse).Feel free to quote Paul all day long. But making up things to attack a book revered by so many will only get us a reputation as being out to destroy religion. Not really the kind of reputation we want. If you want to question the Bible have your facts straight first. Don\’t rely on some video.
Glad you took that last comment down, Kevin. You know I could go through this video and point out a staggering number of errors that are made just because the makers either were too lazy to actually research the subject orjust enjoyed making up lies out of some vicious desire to try and hurt all people who honor the Bible. Hmmm vicious lying videos, a desire to hurt people? REMIND you of anyone?Sounds like hypocrisy to me…and bigotry…are we BECOMING the enemy?
I have to agree with Cass on this one. Sure we find this video humorous but, it is filled with a lot of errors that the fundementalist side sees as direct attacks on themselves and their religion. We do ourselves and the over all gay movement a disservice when we use the tactics used in this video. They use this type of material to show the very people we should actually be working with to assure our civil rights just how we disrespect G-d and the word of G-d (all be it a gross misrepresented by their side as well). You said that if we could at least get them to see that their bible isn\’t quite what they think it is we have a better chance of getting them to look at this differently. Getting them to see their bible isn\’t quite what they think it is will never happen. I would have to refer you back to my discussion with Chirstocentric regarding divorce and what Yeshua acutally said about it. While I did win her over refute the racial discrimination portion of our discussion the dicussion was stonewalled because she would not look at the actual interpertation of the very scripture she uses to justify her position. We will never be able to turn these people from their fundementalist interpertation of the bible just as we would never be able to turn some one steeped in fundemental Islam from their interpertation. Kevin, you know I am not a proponent of gay marriage as being pushed by the gay movement today. This however does not mean that I am not for gays to have the right to a civil union that affords all the same rights that a marriage contract does. I think we have gotten so hung up on this word "marriage" that we have forgotten what the ture goal is "Equality". Marriage in the bible was actually nothing more than a "Civil Contratct" between two families. As a professor of history you know that for centuries the "Church" never performed marriages. The Church only sanctioned marriage in the 15th century. However, because the word is used in the bible many have made it a religious ceremony. All this being said I think we need to be working with those outside the fundementalist movement to help us achieve equal rights by law. More people support the idea of civil union than will ever support the use of the word marriage. I hope I havent overstepped my bounds but I just feel taking on a religious establishment ove the use of a word is the wrong way for us to proceed.
@justin—hi! The problem is that it isn\’t just the "Fundamentalists" who would see this video as an attack on their religion. There are many who hold the Bible in high regard who might just see this kind of video as confirming one of the Fundamentalist claims…that is, that the LGBT Movement is out to destroy religion and would, as a consequence, turn against us at the polls.And I agree with you that people are too hung up on words. I am not really (ah) WEDDED to the term "Marriage", myself. In fact I have stated often that I wouldn\’t care if they called it the "Shut the Fairies and Dykes Up Civil Union Legislation" as long as whatever was passed acknowledged the fact that, as citizens, we are entitled to the same RIGHTS as everyone else.But there are many who feel that calling it anything OTHER than marriage smacks of the "separate but equal" doctrine used to justify segregated schools, segregated movie houses, segregated restauraunts and hotels and all the rest. They were all SEPARATE enough but rarely EQUAL (especially the schools).When one recalls the time that a superstar like Sammy Davis, Jr could not stay (or even eat in the restaurant OF) a Las Vegas Hotel and Casino in which he was the headliner one sees the reason why this is an issue.
I gotta agree with Kevin, the best way to counter fundamentalist, is with logic and common sense, you know things they hate. Just because one believes that the moon is made of cheese doesn\’t mean you cater to them, and neither should we cater to people who think their bigotry is defended by a book with about as many errors as this video.
logic and common sense. But how can we demand either justice or fairness if we don\’t practice either one ourselves? No one is saying we should "cater to the bigots" but that does not mean we disrespect their beliefs either. They have a right to those just as we have a right to believe otherwise. And, let me tell you, Robert…whatever YOU or I may think about the Bible isn\’t important. You people need to stop focussing on this book—what we are demanding is not a change in anyone\’s religious beliefs but an acknowledgement by the courts that in a free society we should have the same rights as everyone else. INCLUDING the right to marry the person we love.And in the courts and in the public arena that should be our focus.If the Fundamentalists want to put up huge signs over their churches forbidding us to even enter let alone get married in THERE that\’s fine.God is everywhere and in everyone—buildings don\’t matter. God is present in the courthouse just as much as in a church (and perhaps even more so in some instances).I deal in Truth, young Jedi…not bigotry, hate, or lies…no matter what source they emanate from. The only thing is…when they come from my own people…the LGBT people…they hurt me more. I guess because I expect better from them.
Hi everyone! The majority of people in this country are Christians. They are usually Christians first, then Americans (and sometimes these are the same). For me, to get people to see that all of us are equal it may be necessary to point out some inconsistencies. For example, I can\’t tell you how many times I have heard Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. You can read in the Bible that the spawn of Adam and Eve leave, and magically, a wife is found. A discrepency? Did God actually create more people than just Adam and Eve? Is this then a true story, or it is an allegory? What about Solomon and all his wives? There is nothing wrong with reminding the \’one man and one woman\’ brigade that the Bible is filled with other types of marriages. It is, afterall, their Bible. If they want to pick and choose–fine. But at least they should recognize that they are ignoring a part of the \’word of God.\’ People have continually changed their view of what they think is in the Bible–it happens all the time. Look at women. For millenia they were treated as second-class citizens because of Eve. But now look–Christian conservative women don\’t like to discuss Eve–they leave her out of it because they then have to examine the \’word of god\’ again in a way that doesn\’t fit their new freedoms. They also ignore Paul\’s statement that a woman shouldn\’t be teaching about religion. How many fundamentalist women try to tell men what their religion is all about? And we can look at numerous other examples where the Bible has been viewed differently even though the words do not change (slavery is an excellent example).Sure, we can try to rely on the courts to settle things and make everyone equal. But look what the court did here in California–they didn\’t make people equal because the religious fundamentalists pushed their religious views on all of us (well, except me and 35,999 other Californians). But I do agree that things are changing fast in this country. It also is no suprise to me that more and more people are saying that they are not Christian or are Christians without a church. A connection? I\’m betting there is one. About the marriage thing–As all of you know, I am legally married here in California (and probably in the states that recognize gay marriages done in other states). It is an extremely personal issue for me. It marks, for me, a stage whereby I AM equal to other people in this state. The people who don\’t like the fact that I am now equal to them use the Bible as their excuse to discriminate. I do not see a single reason to not use that very Bible to teach them there is another way of looking at it–even if you have to use funny videos to do it. Many of them won\’t listen and don\’t like to be told about their own Bible, but it is only going to take convincing just 600,000 people in California to look at marriage in a different way. I\’m happy if just one person takes a second look at their Bible when I talk about it. Carlotta Christocentric is fairly open-minded and she is fully capable of changing her position. I doubt I\’ll be able to convince her to change her mind about this topic, but who knows? But it won\’t be done if I don\’t talk about the Bible.
I believe I already pointed out the discrepancy about Cain finding a whole bunch of people we haven\’t heard about in a neighboring county. But no one is ignorant about this so-called "discrepancy" (it isn\’t one, really, because the Old Testament is concerned with only one group–the Hebrews…their ancestry and their descendants—mostly the male ones…daughters are rarely even mentioned by name. It is not concerned with other peoples, civilizations, or races except as they impact the Hebrews.There are no mentions of Chinese people, Japanese people, etc etc.Any Jewish person could have told you what I just told you. Did they miss that point when you were studying Religion, Kevin"As for Abraham and Sarah the tale is clear Genesis 12: 11-20 gives all the information anyone should need about what Abraham did and why.
By the way try watching the Spencer Tracy film INHERIT THE WIND sometime. It came out in 1960 won four oscars (including the Best Actor award for Spencer Tracy) and brings up all these "inconsistencies" you have suddenly discovered.
Hi Cass,Am I picking up on some anger towards me or is this just my imagination? I hope it is my imagination. If it isn\’t, then it might as well be out in the open. The internet is a tricky thing and without talking face-to-face, there can be misunderstandings. I would rather not misunderstand in this case…It is my understanding that if someone believes it the Bible\’s version of creation–Adam and Eve were the first people ever created. From them came all of humanity–even the Chinese and the Japanese. I can\’t find anywhere in the Bible where it is said God put people all over the earth at the same time as Adam and Eve. I can\’t think of any Jewish writing or Christian writing that states that God made Adam and Eve and at the same time made Mr. and Mrs. Chen in China (that isn\’t racist by the way–my sister-in-law\’s parents are Mr. and Mrs. Chen who live in Taiwan). If he did in the beginning, he certainly wiped them out and started fresh with Noah, and the entire human race comes from him and his family. I\’ll have to ask my good friend who happens to be Jewish what he has been taught. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. No big deal–it happens all the time. And yes, I fully and absolutely admit that I might have missed something when I was studying religion. I have never claimed to be perfect, or to know everything, or to even know any more in my chosen field than anyone else. I like studying Christianity and I don\’t mind being wrong or have it pointed out that I am wrong. However, if that happens, expect a debate to convince me that I am wrong. I just don\’t take that at face value. And as I stated before, these inconsistencies have been brought up hundreds of times, in hundreds of places throughout the history of Western civilization. I didn\’t discover any of them, sadly enough. The Bible is not clear about anything–which leads to discussion, which leads to different theories, which leads to arguments and war. That is the nature of that particular beast. It started with Paul and continues up through this blog. The history of Christianity is full of this debating and it isn\’t going to stop if someone says "it clearly says this." I also don\’t think that the debate will stop if one blocks the other from answering.
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